Copenhagen, Denmark – On a very cold Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pappe was warmed up in the cinema hall, chatting and laughing well in Arabic with one of the organizers of the meeting he had to discuss between black coffee from the paper.
Unlike other Israelis, Pappe said, he learned the “colonial” language by living in Palestine, surrounding himself with Palestinian friends, and learning Arabic.
Hundreds of students, officials, international activists and Danes daily complaining about the Israeli massacre of Palestinians in Gaza participated in the event in the Danish city, which was organized by the European Network for Palestinians.
The group was founded recently, and its members include Danes of Palestinian heritage.
Pappe later told the audience that since Israel's recent war in Gaza began, he had been shocked by Europe's response.
“I share with many people what shocked Europe,” he said on stage. “Europe, which claims to be a model of civilization, has turned a blind eye to today's televised massacres.”
On the sidelines, Al Jazeera interviewed 70-year-old Pappe, an Israeli historian, author and professor who has spent most of his life fighting for Palestinian freedom. We asked him about Zionism, the deal, and what he thinks America's political shift in Gaza means.
Al Jazeera: You said earlier that Zionism's political, political, and economic tools for the establishment of a Jewish state include expropriation and deportation. For the past 15 months, Gaza has endured daily massacres. What part of Zionism are we seeing?
Ilan Pappe: We are in a culture that one could describe as neo-Zionist. The old traditions of Zionism are now much more, (in) a more violent form than they were before, trying to achieve in a short time what the previous Zionist generation was trying to achieve (a) much longer, more, more, gradually.
This is an attempt by the new leadership of Zionism to complete the work they started in 1948, that is to take away the history of Palestine and remove as many Palestinians as possible and in the same way, and (this) something new, to create a new kingdom of Israel that is feared or respected by its neighbors with them – and therefore can expand the territory beyond the borders of the official or historical Palestine.
Historically, I am prepared to say with caution that this is the last phase of Zionism. Historically, such development in ideological groups, whether colonial or imperial, has often been the last chapter of (that is) brutal, ambitious. And then it is too much and then it falls and falls.
Al Jazeera: We are about to leave the new politics as Donald Trump goes to the White House again. He has the loudest voice on social media with tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk, who praises Israel's policies and its military, among government officials. How do you see the president affecting Israel? Will the war in Gaza continue?
Cartons: It's hard to see anything positive about Trump's second term in office and his association with Elon Musk.
The future of Israel and Zionism is tied to the future of America.
I don't think all Americans are Trump supporters. I don't think all Americans are supporters of Elon Musk.
(But) I'm afraid not much can be done in the next two or three years.
The only good news is that populist leaders like (US President-elect Donald) Trump and nuts like Elon Musk can't afford it. They will bring down with them the American economy and the standing of American nations, so it will be difficult for America if this kind of personality leads.
In the long run, I think it could lead to the United States not having a presence in the Middle East. And to me, what you don't do in America is a good thing.
We need international intervention not only in Palestine but in the entire Arab world, but it must come from the Global South and not the Global North. Global North has left such a legacy that few people would consider anyone from Global North as an honest broker. I am very worried about the short time, I don't want people to misunderstand me. I don't see any power stopping the short-term disasters that await us.
When I see more ideas, I think we are at the end of humanity's worst chapter, not the beginning of the worst chapter.
Al Jazeera: At the moment, there are talks about ending the war. When do you expect Palestine to have peace?
Cartons: I don't know, but I think that even the end of the war in Gaza will not end unfortunately, because of the massacre. Hopefully, there will be enough power to if not stop it, stop it or slow it down.
As time goes by, I see a long process. I am talking about 20 years, but I think we are at the beginning of the process.
It is the decolonization process of the settler-colonial project.
It can go either way. We know that from history. Decolonization can be very violent and not produce good governance or it can be an opportunity to build something great, a win for everyone involved and the whole region.
Al Jazeera: For Palestinians and many observers, it seems as if the world stands by while Israel expands with its neighbors and commits genocide with impunity.
Pappe: Well, the last part from history is a long way. It doesn't happen immediately and it's more of a question, it's not a question of when it will happen, but a question of when. And of course that can take time.
There are local and global trends that allow this sector to continue. Whether it's the rise of politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, the new fascism in Europe, the rise of corruption in some Arab countries, all of this works in a way that supports the International Convention that allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another agreement.
It does not have the same power, but it is common and it is associated with many other problems against injustice and it is possible that if not soon, a little later this kind of international opinion that is not just thinking. Palestine, focuses on global warming, poverty, migration, etc. – so that this will be a very powerful political force, and every small victory of another international alliance brings the Zionist project to an end.
Al Jazeera: What should this other partnership do? What can help the cause?
Cartons: There are two things. One, we don't have an organization that has these advantages, support, cooperation, power to fight against injustice. It needs proper organization and some of the young people who are part of the coalition seem to dislike, for good reason, organizations and the like. But you need this infrastructure.
The second thing is to abandon the purist approach that such movements had in the past and create a network and a partnership that considers that people do not agree even on the most important things, but they can work together to end the massacre in Gaza, to free the people on the island.
Al Jazeera: Returning to the powerful coalition that allegedly promotes Zionism, you talked about the long-term rise of Europe. Among them, there are many forms of anti-Semitism.
Cartons: This unholy union existed from the beginning. If you think about it logically, both anti-Semites and Zionists, when it comes to Europe, had the same goal, they didn't want to see Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine would be the goal of the Zionist movement and the anti-Semitic movement.
There is now a new area of common ground between the neo-right and Israel, and this is Islamophobia.
The new freedom is here, although it still has anti-Jewish, anti-Semitic powers in it, targeting mainly Muslim and Arab communities. It does not refer to Jewish communities, specifically.
They see Israel as the most important anti-Islamic anti-Arab group in the world, so there is recognition on that level as well – but of course, it is something that Jews outside of Israel would whisper about if they were part of such an alliance. Even pro-Israeli Jews in Europe feel a little sorry for (those) who make themselves the flag of Israel, but at the same time the flag of Nazism.
Hopefully, it will make them reconsider their relationship with Israel. We are already seeing signs, especially in the American Jewish community among the younger generation, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political unity that they as American Jews cannot recognize.
As we say, it allows Israel to continue because of Trump and the populist leaders, but it is something that will not last forever in the future.
Al Jazeera: The genocide has led many, including some Jewish groups, to study the creation of Israel and the history of the cleansing of Palestine. Have you seen families split up because of their understanding of the conflict?
Cartons: It doesn't happen (in Israel) but certainly Jewish families outside of Israel.
The amount of information that goes around is that young people cannot be blind. Even if they have a good Jewish education, they can see the immorality of Israel's behavior.
It's often a generational conflict, which is a good sign because it means the current generation can be very similar in this role.
Al Jazeera: But inside Israel, young people also have access to videos of murder on social media and TikTok. But many still ignore the suffering of Palestinians
Cartons: They did not receive the same education as young Jews in America. They have the education of a highly educated country. And that is the key. They were designed, if you will, designed by Israeli academics.
I wrote an article in 1999 warning that, looking at Israeli education, the graduates of this system will be racist, dangerous and dangerous to themselves and others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.
This is the result of people being educated from birth to the grave.
You have to retrain these people. You can't just show them something and hope that it will move them.
They can see dead Palestinian babies and say 'Good, very good'. Blasphemy is part of Israel's DNA and it's hard to meet and just give them more.